Tuesday, April 21, 2009

Conniving Cloth

Tucson, Arizona. While the fall of the ax on the cloth cash trough known as Rio Nuevo is inevitable, what is anything but determined is the precise fashion in which it does. I’m speculating on sense of smell, not hard facts, but speaking thematically at 40,000 feet, I am convinced the Clothmeisters are finagling angles to preserve their ability to gorge their appetites for taxpayer funds. They maneuver as we speak to inherit what rises from Rio Nuevo, probably suggesting it be renamed and relabeled to a better sounding headline that goes ka-ching! Candidates likely to be positioning themselves include TREO, DTP, TCC, DDC, MTCVB, and you can bet that Lord Hecker has his hands in the mix. If he isn’t already on the board of whatever acronym inherits the TIF spigot, he will be.

Since the organization handed tens of millions of dollars a year to dispense to friends and family for consulting services might also have to build something, I don’t think the prevailing acronym will be TREO. I also dismiss the MTCVB or the DDC taking over Rio Nuevo. TCC? Probably not. What’s left? Smell it?

Another possibility is that a new acronym (although probably not RNMFD) will assume control of the project, probably headed by a six figure cloth gig awarded to one of Nina’s fans. I don’t know what exactly is happening, but when it does, the cloth won’t be hard to distinguish. Look at those in the top slots and on the board. Someone is salivating over that TIF nipple.

I have an expression for Senators Barbara Leff and Jim Waring: Fool me once.


Anonymous Observer said...

I think you are both right and wrong.

Your sense of smell is totally right that the Cloth are conniving and scheming to take over the TIF and pad their wallets.

However, I think Senators Leff, Waring, Melvin, and Representatives Antoneri and Paton are very much aware of what you are saying. They are not going to let the Clothmeisters continue to stuff themselves at the "TIF nipple."

Sorry, Swine Snell and Lying Lyons.

4/21/2009 3:15 PM  
Anonymous Framer said...


Next Tuesday night at 4:30 in front of the TCC. Bring your sign about cloth and I'll spot you a tea shirt.

That's cloth you can believe in.

4/21/2009 6:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Observer is right. The party is over. If, and it is an if, the TIF is allowed to continue, every penny will be tracked. This boondoggle made the mistake of grabbing the limelight.

Snell and Lyons will have to find another trough. TREO can steal funds that would have helped battered children, and Lyons can take over the parking lot scams. That's what Clothmeisters do.

Framer, Tuesday NIGHT at 4:30? X4mr, you should go and blog about it. Post a picture of the shirt he gives you.

4/21/2009 8:46 PM  
Anonymous Framer said...

It's the OFFICIAL Tucson Tea Party red limited edition tea shirt. There is a waiting list of 150 at $17 each. But I will spot you one IF you show up with a sign about cloth.

And, yeah, for me 4:30+ is early evening. Three kids will do that to you.

4/21/2009 9:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You should accept Framer's invitation. Go with your cloth sign, have some conversation, get your shirt, and tell us about it here.

4/21/2009 11:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is that Canadian Bacon I smell?

4/21/2009 11:33 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

Yeah, X4mr, accept the invitation.

Hang out with the local whack jobs for a spell, it actually builds character.

Who will be carrying the "Obama is a Fascist" sign or the "Obama is Hitler" sign?

4/22/2009 10:52 AM  
Anonymous framer said...

Or the Liza Favorite:

Finish off the Jews . . .

4/22/2009 11:54 AM  
Blogger The Navigator said...

I don't know about standing downtown with an anti-cloth sign. No offense, Framer, but I also don't know if I'd want to be seen in that crowd, period.

I assume the gold and rainbow are alluding to the Rainbow bridge that Rio Nuevo spent over $9 M to ponder. You can really make a lot of money doing absolutely nothing if you're cloth and have no conscience whatsoever.

4/22/2009 12:26 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

Wow, Framer's comment really pissed me off.

I've wondered what Obama must feel when these ignorant racists that seem to be resurfacing from God knows where compare him to Hitler and call him a fascist and so forth.

I wonder if you ever get used to that.

I have never seen such disrespect for a president of the United States.

The GOP strategy right now seems to be that if they say enough really offensive things about Obama, Democrats, and Progressives that some of it is bound to stick. And, out of that luncacy will arise their next Newt Gingrich with a Contract for America.

Dream on, mofos.

Check out the demographics of the USA. People who look and speak like Dick Cheney are a minority, Thank God.

What a waste of perfectly good tea.

4/22/2009 1:47 PM  
Blogger x4mr said...

I'm not much for censoring comments, but blogger does allow everyone to delete their own comments, so by all means, if you want it deleted, you can do it.

Framer's remark did cross a line, perhaps with full intent, and perhaps not realizing the full implications of his remark, which I think is useful in distinguishing a dynamic somewhat unique to Israel, which is a hyper sensitivity (and some would say justified) to the idea of Israel or Judaism facing extinction, a product of both the holocaust AND the misguided rhetoric of some (e.g. Iran's Achmednutajob) anti-Israel statements about wishing it to be "pushed into the sea."

One result of this is a tendency to collapse criticism of Israel with wishing its annihilation. I sharply criticized the recent Gaza offensive. What a mess. That does not mean I want Israel destroyed. There's actually a fair amount posted at this blog about the Middle East over the years, some of it rather in depth and citing articles, books or distinguished experts. Sometimes Framer and I agree, sometimes not.

One of the higher level ones was Completing the Past about the need for Jews themselves to find a new paradigm in thinking about past and future.

I seriously doubt Framer actually believes Liza has it out for the Jews. She has voiced her outrage (which I share) regarding some of the brutality inflicted on the Palestinians.

Liza has a valid point about some of the people at these tea parties. I posted last week about some of the shirts one might find at these rallies.

4/22/2009 3:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dang, Framer.

"Finish off the Jews..." ?

I haven't seen anything (at this blog) to warrant THAT.

4/22/2009 3:40 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

I'll just let the comment stay as is.

This is where Republicans are right now, smears and name calling. They have been making outrageous and baseless accusations for so long now that we have to believe it's all they've got.

Unfortunately, this type of behavior attracts the worst of their supporters and gives them a pass on expressing their ignorance and racism and hatred.

So much of what I'm seeing is unwillingly taking me back to the Jim Crow south, a time and a place I would never want to go back to.

The fact is, I know why Obama can take the insults and I can't. It's called being black in America and spending your entire life on the receiving end of the ignorance and racism and hatred that I referred to earlier, subtle or not. Right now it isn't subtle, and that's what keeps reminding me of where I came from.

4/22/2009 4:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not any of the anonymouses above, and I won't get into this Israel thing.

I wanted to share that x4mr's smell is just about perfect. I know that Glenn Lyons is very much working to position himself and the DTP to get serious TIF money, but instead of "taking it over" it will be more like, you guessed it, working "as a consultant."

They will "outsource" handling the TIF. The bogus RFP will be a total sham, and Hecker will provide the legal advice (ka-ching!). TREO will not be involved, except that when something / anything gets built, "Swine Snell" will make a speech about the capital investment TREO is creating, and how the new building will attract the creative class and strengthen the community fabric.

4/22/2009 4:19 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

Anon (4:19 PM),
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but if Tucson can't rid itself of these third rate predators, there just isn't much hope. They'll keep pouring money down ratholes and Tucson will look like it does now. Not much will change, ever.

4/22/2009 5:43 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

Getting back to what I was saying about all of the vitriol and hate that has become part of this so-called tea bag movement...

I wish I could describe to all of you what it was like being a powerless little white kid in the Deep South during segregation. You have this guilt and shame that you take with you to your grave. We are the ones who couldn't make eye contact with black people that we pass on the street.

I wish I had the words to tell you the kind of damage that is being done by all of this vitriol and hatred. These tea people have their children carrying these signs and attending these events because they think it is cute or it makes some kind of statement. But some of these children are attending events where the president of the United States is being compared to an evil man who caused the deaths of millions of people. And the president is being called a fascist among other smears.

Framer made a remark above that essentially said that I support the genocide of Jewish people. Outrageous, yes, but what we need to ask ourselves is why has it become so easy to just hurl these horrible accusations as if we were talking about the weather?

You are on the wrong side, Mr. Humphries. Furthermore, you are not a Christian by any definition I ever learned in 12 years of Catholic school.

And, quite frankly, when you and your kind invoke the name of God it just might be your worst offense of all.

4/22/2009 6:01 PM  
Anonymous Robish said...

Anonymous (4:19)'s information is "spot on", from what I've heard.

Next month Lyons will take over ParkWise, the city's downtown-area parking department, and get a fat consulting or management fee from it. The money doesn't go directly into Lyons' pocket, but it gives him and his organization some financial security so that he won't have to worry about cutting more services to keep his own checks coming on time. Oh, wait, he's probably not concerned about that.

x4mr mentioned DDC as a candidate to make a play for the TIF, but at this point, DDC is not the hunter but the hunted. Lyons and Hecker have DDC squarely in their sights as well. The DDC owes the Industrial Development Authority about a million (articles in the Daily Star last summer covered the IDA's efforts to be repaid or at least find out where its investment went), so the IDA will probably get the DDC's cash cow--the parking lot across from the downtown El Charro restaurant.

Then they will probably award a management contract to Lyons, who already has some experience counting the cash that the big parking lot generates. (That was in the Daily Star article too.)

And now they are going after a contract for the TIF, which probably won't go over well with Waring, Leff, and Gould, who remember Lyons' appearance at the Senate Finance Committee, when he acted as Greg Shelko's wingman. This naked power/money grab could jeopardize the efforts of those in the southern Arizona state legislative delegation who are still trying to save the TIF for Tucson's benefit (but without the city of Tucson having anything to do with controlling it).

Besides what anonymous mentioned, Snell and TREO will take credit for having envisioned this "consolidation" in their Economic Blueprint for Tucson, where they called for a new private-sector group to take over Rio Nuevo. The problem is, DTP is not exactly private-sector.

4/22/2009 7:34 PM  
Anonymous framer said...


I'll listen to any discussion that accuses me of hate and intolerance, but not by you.

Can you point me out to even one post where you haven't steeped yourself in Bush and Republicans are Hitler!!!!! You are a shrill, intolerant cyberbully who confuses volume for sound argument. I simply returned your argument back at you.

No, I don't believe you want to recreate the Holocaust, it was hyperbole. You, however, truly do believe that every member of the Republican party is a Hitler Loving Fascist and say so at every opportunity you get. Somebody needed to smack you back at least once, as it appears that you think that the ability to hurl vile insults from on top of your high horse without any repercussion is indeed God-given.

If I offended any one else besides you, I truly apologize.

4/22/2009 8:32 PM  
Anonymous framer said...

Oh and x4mr,

Commenting on the type of shirts that MIGHT have been at the tea parties that you have no actual knowlege of is WAY off base.

They didn't exist. There was exactly one sign that I "discussed" with the owner and he took down.

Intolerance works both ways. Accusations without knowledge or ecidence can be almost as bad as the act itself.

4/22/2009 8:39 PM  
Anonymous Another Anon said...

Framer, I vote you off the island.

4/22/2009 8:56 PM  
Blogger x4mr said...

All right.

First, regarding shirts and rallies, I most deliberately chose the word "might" and "these rallies" to front a vague speculation that I will stand by. No, I haven't reviewed tea party footage, but I have seen rather extensive footage of GOP rallies during the election that is entirely consistent with my speculation.

If you are an authority regarding the specific rallies here locally, and you tell me that they are clean in this context, I will accept your word without reservation.

I believe Liza when she says she saw images of signs at tea party events as she described. Depictions of Obama as "fascist" and similar signs are already in MSM.

If I've done my job, I have clearly distinguished separate components of the GOP, recently using Meghan McCain's "old vs. new" and before that "kooks vs. moderates" and other language. I'd like to see the GOP sort itself out, keeping the good and tossing the bad, and I've opined about which is which (I certainly haven't been shy regarding Cheney).

I happen to think what local Republican Rep. Antoneri has been up to is great.

I share Liza's views about what I'll call the "Limbaugh clan," and we are both more than smart enough to know who they are. I am very clear that you are not one of them. Liza can speak for herself, but I disagree with your assertion that she thinks EVERY Republican is in the kook crowd. If she posts here that she does, I'll be surprised (and disagree).

Framer and I go back as bloggers several years. We've agreed and disagreed, but the discourse has always been sound. I think his 11:54 comment was in the context of signage and T-shirts, which would have been a simple (and welcome) expression of another opinion.

Tying it explicitly to Liza is what crossed a line, and I can get why it lit her up. Framer, your few words said more than you meant them to say.

4/22/2009 9:21 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

"Can you point me out to even one post where you haven't steeped yourself in Bush and Republicans are Hitler!!!!! You are a shrill, intolerant cyberbully who confuses volume for sound argument. I simply returned your argument back at you."

Actually, I could point you to one. I absolutely despised the Bush Administration but I think my vocabulary is above that of calling someone Hitler in every post.

Yours, however, is not. Remember the "Islamofascist" craze? You're a one man echo chamber for the crazy right wingnuts you listen to.

After what you said about me supporting the genocide of Jewish people, Framer, you have shown what you truly are. An ignorant little white man who is seething with hatred and rage. That was no hyperbole. That is just you, another ignorant right wingnut asshole, spewing hatred.

You smack me? Yeah, sure. Dream on, mofo.

I know your kind. You've finally identified yourself, although I already knew, and have for some time.

Your indignation is just so laughable.

4/22/2009 11:03 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

There were a lot of pictures on the web that had been taken at these so called tea parties. There were quite a few on HuffPo where people were carrying signs calling Obama a Hitler, a fascist, a baby killer, and so on. Some were more detailed. I remember one that said that Obama destroyed the nation in one month.

There was a video last week where a CNN reporter was asking this tea party guy why he thought Obama was a fascist (because he had a sign that said that.) The guy said, "Because he just is, that's why." The fool didn't have a clue how to define fascism.

This name calling has gotten really, really bad.

4/22/2009 11:15 PM  
Anonymous framer said...


Whatever you say. Of course it was Hyperbole. Everyone here but you knows it. The problem is that you are completely incapable of looking at your ideological opposite with anything but hate. I will readily admit that I may have stepped over a line, but I did so in the context that your pet cause is full of anti-semitism. Look at the signs of those events, talk to the people there. Then get back to me on the vileness of the tea party protesters.

Would all or most of the American Anti-Israel protesters have a vile sign like I described? No, but some would and do. The swastika is quite common. This is especially classy when protesting a synagogue.

Should I ascribe this behavior to EVERYONE in your movement? You seem to be opposed to that based on your reaction. Why then does no one but you get the option of sorting themselves away from whatever loonies appear?

4/22/2009 11:26 PM  
Anonymous framer said...

And not that I care for this discussion, but disarming and abandoning Israel would amount to genocide.

4/22/2009 11:32 PM  
Blogger Liza said...


Fuck off.

Israel/Palestine is not my pet issue. I am not part of a movement. You do not know the meaning of anti-semitic.

You are such a trash talker.

4/22/2009 11:44 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

Here's a blog you should visit, Framer:


Philip Weiss is a liberal Jew, but Zionists comment on his blog all the time.

Anyhow, it would be an opportunity for you to learn something rather than just making the really ignorant remarks that you consistently make on this subject.

Do you really think it isn't obvious how little you know?

You're an echo chamber for people who are equally as ignorant as you are, but they hide it better (some of them.)

4/23/2009 12:23 AM  
Blogger Sirocco said...

Framer most definitely should _not_ be "voted off the island", as it were. I thought his comment was unnecessarily provocative, but agree it was clearly intended as hyperbole.

Regardless, he doesn't have anything like the history of intentionally provocative, insensitive, downright stupid remarks that Diana did.


I saw noted somewhere in the blogosphere (don't recall where, so can't credit it properly), Republicans are turning to the term "facist" now because their overuse of "socialist", combined with the meltdown perpetrated by their vision of unregulated capitalism, has removed most of the stigma attached to "Socialism" ... "Facism", however, is still a dirty word.

Oh ... for the record, I unquestionably, with my own eyes and ears, witnessed signs comparing Obama and Dems to facists, and people screaming about such nonsense too at a tea bag assembly. A small, vocal, ugly minority, but certainly part of the gathering.

4/23/2009 7:22 AM  
Anonymous Observer said...

Good comment, Robish. You added to what I know about it.

This is a dual thread.

X4mr is not doing anything to Framer. Framer is a legit blogger and that's why his remark provoked such strong reaction. Diana would have LOVED to get such a rise out of readers, but everyone knew what she was.

Framer's remark was hyperbole, which Framer confirmed himself. While his gatherings may be free of the "wackos" I can add my voice to those that have seen disturbing material (in particular this ridiculous "fascist" mantra) at these parties.

I would be interested in Framer's thoughts on Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove....

Meghan McCain gets it.

4/23/2009 8:34 AM  
Blogger Liza said...

I hope Navigator reads this thread. It is full of “meta messages.”

My 10:52 AM comment was genuine outrage. Being accused of supporting the genocide of Jewish people or any other human beings is not something that I take lightly.

I could have deleted the comment, but I was working online all day anyhow and I figured it was as good a day as any to let Framer expose himself. My gut feel was that he would. I’ve been on to him since the days of his rants about “Islamofascists.” As I said, a one man echo chamber for the crazy right wingnuts who dominate talk radio and Fox News.

X4mr gave Framer a way out, a chance to apologize and save face. “Say that you didn’t mean it literally” is the message. X4mr is a gentleman and I think he genuinely likes Framer. He also likes having people on the blog who have opposing points of view.

Finally, Framer shows up. Not with an apology but with more insults directed at me. Not anything that could be substantiated, just a typical right wingnut tantrum where they spew whatever occurs to them. Kind of like a three year old with a bad temperament.

“Obama is a fascist.”

“Liza is a Jew hater.”

Why? “Because I said so.”

As for the so-called “hyperbole,” read Framer’s 11:26 PM comment and tell me again it was “hyperbole.” At this point, he is just making stuff up to support his original attack. He associates me with a “movement” that is “anti-semitic” and uses “swastikas.” At this point, he is completely ridiculous, just like the guy on CNN carrying the “Obama is a fascist” sign and saying that Obama is a fascist because “he just is.”

This is what all the wing nuts do when they get in a snarl. Just keep talking, keep insulting, keep attacking, and keep lying. Some of it might stick.

How can you even respond to it? Liar, liar, pants on fire? Totally inane.

Quite honestly, it was good to call him out. Kind of liberating.

He's no different than your average right wingnut parrot who mimicks their heroes - Limbaugh, Savage, Hannity, Beck, etc...

4/23/2009 11:21 AM  
Blogger Liza said...

I thought about something else that is related to this, so I may as well bring it up.

For about 18 months I have been reading a political blog where the blog owner is a young African American journalist. A lot of very articulate young black men comment there and some of the discussions just kind of blow me away. This is a generation that I am just beginning to understand.

I remember one discussion that they were having about Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.

I remember this one comment, "We honor Martin one day a year, but we live Malcolm 365."

Please, for those of you who are reasonable people, do not take these attacks on Obama lightly. Do not dismiss them as the hatred and vitriol of a small minority.

This is dangerous.

If anything were to happen to him, you would see something come down in this nation that right now is incomprehensible even to me, and I was a witness to the civil rights movement.

This nation would not heal, not ever.

I call out the haters and the racists because it's all I can do right now.

And I worry.

Please think about it.

4/23/2009 11:36 AM  
Blogger The Navigator said...

I read this blog everyday. My sense of Framer is more sympathetic than Liza’s, and this thread shows how two decent people can flame out. I think the general criticism of the tea party crowd set Framer off because he personally reacted to assertions that are not accurate for his particular events. As x4mr said, I too will believe what Framer says about his own rallies.

To make it easier here, let’s just assume Framer’s rallies are fine people concerned about excessive government. That does not detract from the points made by Liza, x4mr, Sirocco, Observer, and others that some of the participants at some of the events are the scary creatures like the lady that called Obama an Arab. There’s a reason x4mr posted that T-shirt post last week. It made me sick, but it was a positively brilliant way to hit the nail on the head. X4mr has several posts about "the kooks" and one of their subgroups is clearly racist, and I agree with Liza that it is dangerous. If something happens to Obama, cities burn.

Given the same overall environment (budget, economy..) do you think these parties would be happening if McCain were president? Not a chance. I’m not going to try to put thoughts in Framer’s head, but I remain convinced that some of the energy behind these parties has to do with Obama’s race, whipped up hysteria about gun control, and a general air of panic among conservatives. They are terrified, and this exacerbates the danger Liza is discussing.

Framer may or may not see the subtext behind x4mr’s, Liza’s, and others general nervousness and mistrust of these interests. I refer to the unspeakably incompetent, evil, arrogant, and abhorrent Bush administration. Bush deliberately employed Chinese torture techniques designed not to gain accurate intelligence, but to brutally coerce FALSE testimony tying Iraq to Al Queda. They waterboarded a guy 183 times in a month. They knowingly lied and falsified to take the country into an unprovoked war. They are guilty of treason. They are Republicans, and some Republicans (Rove, Cheney..) still advocate torture and do so on national television. Returning to the tea party group, after being all lovey dovey with Bush and cheering his quadrupling of the debt, they look like hypocrites now getting all antsy pansy about the budget.

Do you get that Framer? It's rather important. We just learned our former president committed war crimes and treason, and you are gathering to protest Obama's budget. That should help you understand Liza's mistrust of the sentiments behind these rallies.

Framer’s 11:32 remark is somewhat telling. He seems genuinely concerned about the possibility of Israel’s being "abandoned and disarmed." I cannot foresee any sequence of events leading to that. I have the opposite conviction. If some cataclysmic near extinction event (comet, pandemic, global seismic mayhem..) were to happen and slash humanity to a tenth of its population today, I’d bet on the Jews and the Swiss.

4/23/2009 1:21 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

"...do you think these parties would be happening if McCain were president? Not a chance."


It is about being deprived of power for an indefinite period of time.

They are trying to regain power.

They have brought the nation to the brink of financial ruin and it is uncertain where this leads. They have made us the most hated nation in the world. They thought that robbing Iraq of its oil was sound energy policy. They think that human beings who are not like them have as much value as a shelter dogs.

In their dilapidated and power deprived state they are just reaching for something. Right now it's tea parties. Something might happen, they think. Somewhere in this is a 1994 turnaround, a Newt Gingrich who can deliver the House or the Senate or maybe both.

But vitriol attracts vitriol.

Remember the crowds at the Sarah Palin events?

4/23/2009 2:00 PM  
Blogger TexPatriate said...

*steps into her Kevlar bloomers again*

I read all the comments on this thread multiple times before I could decide what I wanted to say.

I cannot excuse Framer's use of the phrasing, but I can accept that he did mean it as hyperbole. However, it mystifies me how polarizing BOTH points of view are (Framer's and Liza's) and it underlines the exact problem we're all in at the moment.

It seems that the country (yes, I mean damn near EVERYONE) has lost the ability to use reason first and emotion second. Don't get me wrong, I am the first one on race day when I get cranked up about something, BUT. . . I like to think that I use my grey matter as much as I use my adrenal gland.

The level of vitriol and sheer animosity of the comments above stuns me. It. Stuns. Me.

How in the world do you suppose that we are going to be able to come to commonalities if people insist on setting up camp in different polarities and then screaming insults and epithets across the divide ? How is that productive ? How does that help ? How is that different than what disgusts us between the Republican and Democratic leadership RIGHT NOW ?

*eats a piece of cake and does some deep thinking*

4/23/2009 6:41 PM  
Anonymous Framer said...

Of course the Tea Parties would be happening if McCain were president if he were spending like the Government is now. Bush's numbers were in the 20%'s because conservatives were sick of the spending. McCain's campaign completely imploded on the day he "suspended the campaign" to run to Washington to work on the stimulus bill.

John Shadegg was booed when he spoke at the tea party in Phoenix.

The only reason this is about Obama is because he is in charge now and he has proposed mountains and mountains of new debt. It is not racial. Let this sink in for a minute:


I don't care how much you love Obama that is complete country-crushing disaster. and at the end of that chart Social Security goes upside down.

And yes Liza, your constant crusade to make everything racial is nasty and terrible. I don't know where you have arrived in your life to bring you to that point, Hell, it may have even been earned. But you want to call the good folk that got together to speak for my children racists, then back at you.

By the same standard you hold these people, it is readily provable by your past comments that you are an anti-semite. Do I think you are an anti-semite? I hope not, and up until your constant stone throwing I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Look, I have been doing this for a number of years and I am not a flame thrower, my record speaks to that. I don't hate you, nor do I hold a grudge. Nothing on an internet board is worth that. I do wish however, that you and others would actually attend an event and speak to a cross section of people before labeling every single attendee a racist.

Or perhaps politics is beyond that now.

4/23/2009 6:54 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

"...it is readily provable by your past comments that you are an anti-semite."

Show me the comments, Framer. Where are my anti-semitic comments?

Did I oppose the massacres in Lebanon and Gaza? Yes, I most certainly did. So, did many thousands of Jews in Israel and the United States. Are they anti-semitic?

Do you really think it is that easy? You can just deflect attention from your own vitriol and hatred by DECLARING me to be anti-semitic.

I really should stop wasting time on you. I've already decided what you are and contrary to what you think, I use the term racist very sparingly when applied to a particular individual.

4/23/2009 7:26 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

If what you read above stuns you, then you must be very young with very limited experience.

You haven't seen what people are capable of doing to each other.

Even as a very little kid, growing up with Jim Crow, I knew the only way it could end. The older generation had to die.

Legislation certainly doesn't change people. It just means that if you break the law and get caught, you will be prosecuted.

If you think that people are going to come together, you are sadly mistaken.

It is not going to happen. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Like I said above, these so called tea parties are about power, or should I say the loss of power. These people are not interested in coming together across the great social and cultural and racial divides. They just want to be returned to power. They think this might get them there - this crusade about government spending which was of no concern to them when George Bush got the public debt over 10 trillion. Or was it 11 trillion? I lost count.

The problem, of course, as I have said 8 or 10 times but Framer is incapable of understanding it, is that their vitriol attracts vitriol of another kind. And those people are racists.

4/23/2009 7:47 PM  
Blogger TexPatriate said...


Thank you, but I am neither very young, nor do I have "limited" experience. I have seen things that have made me ill, but. . . honestly, I still maintain hope that humanity can work toward common goals, rather than continue the polarization that I see now, both in this country and around the world.

And. . . as for your vitriol comment in the last statement, I agree -- vitriol begets vitriol, which is why it is so important to stop it early and maintain an awareness of it in our own personal dealings as well as in the gestalt. No one should be the first to throw that stone.

4/23/2009 8:19 PM  
Anonymous Framer said...


I DO NOT believe you are an anti-semite, but if opposing Obama makes an entire group racist, then opposing Israel makes one an anti-semite. There are of course racists that oppose Obama (as well as those that support him) and anti-semites that oppose Israel. All of these people make up a small fraction of any side (minus Hamas of course). How you felt when you were unfairly accused is also in play to those who you accuse. Except that I was purposely going too far.

DO you REALLY think that there is a large or even measurable section of Republicans wishing for the assassination of Barak Obama? Enough to make a fantasy movie of it perhaps?

Conservatives were plenty pissed at Bush for his spending. Again, look at his approval. Do you think 70%+ of the country was made up of anti-war Dems? McCain lost because Americans felt that Obama was more reliable on fiscal matters. Had he promised 14 trillion more in deficits things likely would have went a different way.

The other thing about the Tea Parties is that they have not largely been tools for Republican politicians. If there are plans for being "returned to power." it certainly does not include a great deal of Republicans already sitting in power, especially on a national level.

And there were Tea Parties during the Bush era, they were called Ron Paul rallies.

4/23/2009 8:52 PM  
Anonymous Spectator said...

I am totally new to this blog, and I have been reading it for about the last five hours, with a few interruptions.

This is easily the most awesome blog I have ever read. From local to global to movie reviews, what insight. The notion of "cloth" is just genius, and it is uncanny how (I don't know much about my town's local politics) much it applies where I live. We have those same characters with different names.

The weather T-shirt (partial Sunnis, scattered Shiites) made me have to walk away from the computer for a few minutes.

I have no background regarding you people, so hey, but doesn't the exchange at this story show so much of the humanity that is causing our grief on the planet?

I must say, coming from knowing nothing about this place, that I think it takes some courage for Liza and Framer to post comments like they have here. Regardless of what they might think about each other, I respect both. These are two good, smart, well meaning people, which makes the explosions all the more dramatic and thought provoking.

I don't remember where in all of the material, but somewhere someone said this blog has soul. That's perfect and quite the understatement.

I promise I'm not just flattering (to what possible benefit?) here, but I am pretty blown away by all of you. Seriously, this place has a lot of caring heart and authentic soul driven by sharp mind.

Great place, x4mr, and you should feel privileged to have such readers.

4/23/2009 10:22 PM  
Blogger x4mr said...

If you've spent five hours reading the place, I would hardly say you don't know anything.

I appreciate the kinds words, and most certainly do feel privileged by those that comment here. You are most welcome to become one of them.

4/24/2009 9:41 AM  
Anonymous Scarlett Letter said...

It is so awesome that this blog is so well read.
Now, what are we doing away from our computers to make change happen?

4/27/2009 8:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anybody see Hein on AZ Illustrated just now? Who the F cares what he says? Notice his upper lip doesn't move when he speaks?
Buckmaster -- go on your world tour ... now!

4/29/2009 6:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A little bit of research by the "right" people will have one discover that the Tucson Downtown Partnership is actually a violation of Non-Profit law. Additionally their Security Division is in immediate violation of the Department of Public Safety regulations for the naming and logo of the Security Agency. They still wear "Downtown Alliance" patches and shirts. They have not bought new ones cuz all the loot is going to the Calgary Czarist and Queen Caraena's salaries. This seemingly small thing with name and logo is actually huge in the eyes of DPS. They could be closed down on the spot.

5/03/2009 2:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A bit more research may bring a real gem of undisclosed activity into the sunlight... which is that no one to date can tell the citizenry if TIF monies are being used to pay the rent at TCC to the BDFC. Yes, "rent" And what might be the rate of return to these clandestine investors be?

5/03/2009 2:57 PM  

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