Wednesday, September 29, 2010

Nogales Cloth Amateurs Indicted

Nogales Mayor Octavio Garcia-Von Borstel was arrested Tuesday on charges he took bribes to protect contracts or obtain business contracts with the city. He is also accused of money laundering, conflict of interest, illegally conducting an enterprise and fraud.

They also indicted and arrested his father, Octavio Garcia Suarez, on charges that include fraud, theft and money laundering.

"Both the mayor and his father will be held accountable and prosecuted to the full extent of the law." Attorney General Terry Goddard said.


Tucson’s Cloth know how it’s done. You don’t take the bribe outright. You form a consulting business and charge fees for influence. Granted, the Tucson charade is getting a little surreal. Now it appears proponents of the downtown hotel want it to be built so long as someone else is accountable. Rio Nuevo wants the city to build it. The city wants Rio Nuevo to build it.

Rio Nuevo board member Alan Willenbrock noted that the HVS financial projections for the project were beyond ridiculous - calculations based upon assumptions prior to the great recession as well as Arizona’s tourist magnet SB 1070, which led to the cancellation of well over $100M in booked conventions in Phoenix alone. He was thanked for sharing and then dismissed from the board.

The Tucson Progressive blog has some good content on the hotel.

Like the Rosemont mine, the stupid thing will happen, even though other local hotels (Starr Pass, Westin La Poloma) teeter on the brink of bankruptcy. Despite all the rhetoric, assurances, and guarantees, Garfield Traub will slither into nooks and crannies to create millions in cost overruns bumbling Bob will dismiss as “costs of business.” Dismal occupancy rates will force nauseating public subsidies, but unlike Nogales, no one will be indicted. The Cloth will prosper. TREO will declare the $300M construction costs as capital investment it created, spinning the huge expenditure as, in fact, not an expense but revenue, a return on investment!

Which it is, if you’re Garfield Traub.



Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nogales sounds more like gold old fashioned graft and corruption rather than the Powerpoint sophistication of the Cloth.

I also doubt Nogales spent $250,000 for consultants to make a glossy pamphlet, and no way did they spend $250 million in TIF money to build essentially nothing.

The hotel story has devolved to those clown funnies they made in the first days of cinema, where clown characters crash bikes, cars, fall into holes, etc.. all shown in high speed to music.

9/29/2010 12:31 PM  
Blogger The Navigator said...

The hotel story is just incredible. What a collection of clowns.

I don't know if the Nogales situation is Cloth, but whether it is or not, the Cloth concept has been a lot of fun. x4mr seems to be winding down. Perhaps what he thought was happening last January is now truly taking place.

I hope not.

9/29/2010 5:09 PM  
Anonymous Observer said...

I have noticed that x4mr posts less often when things are totally insane. He waits until he can make some sense of it.

O'Donnell is dabbling in witchcraft and thinks evolution is a myth. The Republicans are talking about forcing raped girls to have their rapists babies.

The assholes in the Senate won't even let the government investigate the BP oil spill.

9/29/2010 8:40 PM  
Anonymous Framer said...

First of all, Observer, go to Hell. You deserve the ass-kicking coming your way.

Second of all, the good guys are going to win this one. Steve K. was in a chess match with Walkup and just defeated him in a rout. The mayor played all of his cards to get the pass down from the Rio Nuevo Board, and Steve just slammed the door on him. The fact that he got a 7-0 vote is incredible (Mayor will always vote with the majority.) That thing had to be passed before the audit and there is no chance that will happen now.

The question is can they now use the tif funds to fix the TCC? The legislation is not at all clear on that, and I believe it would all have to be rebid if the TCC renovation was approved. With the "cloth" taking hits and under scrutiny, that process would be fun.

9/29/2010 10:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Are you saying the hotel is dead?

If so, I hope you are right.

x4mr seems resigned that the Cloth will prevail with this money pit.

9/29/2010 10:20 PM  
Anonymous Robish said...

I agree with Framer about where this is going. Framer is obviously following all of this closely.

The bad guys are acting desperate, and that is a very good sign for the good guys. By "good guys", I mean "average taxpaying citizens".

The TIF legislation says that "they" (Rio Nuevo board, probably, not the City Council) must issue a Notice to Proceed on the convention hotel and convention center. The TCC is a piece of crap that needs fixing before anything else makes sense in the way of a resort hotel downtown, so why not focus on that?

The legislature is too disorganized to take the TIF away unless the City of Tucson really messes up again. Renovating the TCC will be good enough to satisfy the Phoenix clowns for now, in my opinion.

Does anybody really believe the intent of the legislature was for the City of Tucson to bankrupt itself on a hotel it clearly cannot afford?

9/30/2010 1:15 AM  
Anonymous Framer said...


I spoke to Steve last week, he seemed to believe that the vote was going to be close, which is why I am optimistic with the unanimous outcome. It doesn't hurt that half the city council is thinking about running for mayor next year and probably don't want to stick their neck out too far on this with all of the push back going on.

It will also be interesting to see if the stinging defeat of the mayor can roll over into the "modern streetcar" scheme. There isn't a lot of optimism that that boondoggle can be halted.

9/30/2010 5:08 AM  
Anonymous Robish said...

It wasn't a definitive "no", of course, and there was plenty in the motion to make the various council members vote for it. They all want to look good at cramming the GMP down. Fimbres wants to see the construction jobs, so he got that bone about hiring more local contractors.

For Karin and Regina, they can look tough on getting the hotel operator to put "skin in the game" while they try to run out the clock on the election, hoping they don't have to take a final vote until after their core tax has been . . . passed, they hope. More likely smashed by the voters.

Should be great fun watching who runs for mayor next year, either for a 2-year term (if charter changes pass) or a 4-year term if they don't. There are a lot of recycled public figures rumored to be running, like Fred Ronstadt and of course Shirley.

Nice guy Bill Holmes is said to be interested, and the D's seem to be talking up attorney Jonathan Rothschild as a formidable candidate. It will be interesting to see if Steve Kozachik gets talked into running.

9/30/2010 9:12 AM  
Anonymous Framer said...

There is no way the developers or anyone else involved actually put a nickle of their own money into this project. As long as the council holds firm on that, this project is over.

401 isn't passing. I endorsed it, press conferenced for it, even campaigned a bit for it along with Jeff Rogers, and even I can see the writing on the wall.

There is something in "compromise" for everyone to hate, and people just aren't in the half a loaf mood right now. If the audit is made public before election day, no one is going to vote for a pay raise for the city council. Which is a large part of the reason we are in so much trouble now. Too much of our elected official responsibilities are outsourced to these quasi-governmental middle-men groups.

I believe that Steve loves his job too much at the University to take a full-time Mayor position at 42,000 a year.

9/30/2010 1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know who either Robish or Framer are, but they obviously sit very close to the hub of all this.

Framer and x4mr disagree a lot. Here they agree the hotel is a bad idea, but disagree on whether it will be built. I am pessimistic, meaning I agree with x4mr. The Cloth will find a way to get it done.

If Framer is right, and they stop this boondoggle, I would be delighted. The same goes for the trolley car that no one will ride.

9/30/2010 2:31 PM  
Anonymous Another Anon said...

This was just Tweeted... the Cloth in action

At the Imagine Greater Tucson launch at Hi Corbett field. Pete Likins presenting the process for the vision of our region.

9/30/2010 4:19 PM  
Anonymous Robish said...

Likins' vision for our region used to include a rainbow bridge, with a science center dangling from it. Cute idea, but at $400 million, the cleverness holds much less appeal.

He always seemed like a good man, but his legacy includes that rainbow bridge boner.

I give him credit for sticking around and trying to make a difference. Cloth-y though he may be.

9/30/2010 7:27 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

When someone says, "Go to Hell" the best response is:

There is no hell.

That's right, folks, there is no hell. And if there were, I'm quite sure it would have a Republican majority.

As for the Democrats getting the "ass kicking they deserve," it makes me wonder what the Bush era Republicans deserve. On that scale I would say perhaps execution by hanging. The current Republicans probably deserve death by firing squad.

And the Tea Party? Well, I tend to cut some slack for the most ignorant among us because, after all, we really do not know how much of it is their fault. Maybe they just deserve to have their mouths washed out with soap. Then perhaps a few lectures on why they shouldn't tell lies and call people names, especially the democratically elected President of the US. A class that explains The Constitution would be nice, but would be too far over their heads. Anything that is not a slogan or does not fit on a sign or a bumper sticker exceeds their comprehension skills. Also, they are fueled by feelings, not facts, and what they seem to feel most is hate and anger.

But they do have the right to vote.

10/01/2010 7:26 AM  
Anonymous Observer said...

Framer's an asshole. If he doesn't like what I say, I must be saying something right.

If the tea party cockroaches get elected, especially if they get elected in enough numbers to take Congress, those in the center will explode. There are already signs that this is starting.

Part of me hopes the insects take over and enact a 23% sales tax on food and medicine. Of course they will explode the deficit far worse (once in power, Republicans are debt fiends way worse than Democrats - how about $5T to invade Turkey or Uzbekistan or Venezuela?)

Framer talks about the national debt like his people weren't the ones who created it to steal trillions for the Cheney club.

Let's invade China. They will greet us as liberators, except I'm not sure who will loan us the money. The Republicans will find someone to borrow from. They always do.

10/01/2010 8:12 AM  
Anonymous Framer said...

Bush era spenders deserve to be busted in the primaries. Currently no fewer than eight NRSC-endorsed Senate candidates were taken out in the primaries. When you say the anger is against just Obama, that point strongly argues against you. The Tea Party actually has a mission statement and a principles approach to it.

You guys DO realize that Raul Grijalva has a really good chance at losing this cycle, right? Let that sink in. If he is not safe, who is?

As for Hell, it has a trolley tour:

Thank you Tucson Democratic Machine.

10/01/2010 8:22 AM  
Anonymous Framer said...

Oh, I missed your comment Observer. You keep watching Obermann like it's reality and stay in your happy place. You will need to start taping episodes and saving them so you can run them full time starting in November. You will need it. He'll probably get canceled soon anyway.

Look on the bright side, maybe CNBC will give Alan Grayson his own show after he gets sent home. There's someone you can make sweet, sweet love to.

10/01/2010 9:16 AM  
Blogger Liza said...

I didn't say that Tea Party anger is just against President Obama. I said, "Also, they (the Tea Party) are fueled by feelings, not facts, and what they seem to feel most is hate and anger."

I actually think that the anger is derived from despair, a desperate clinging to a way of life that can no longer exist. And when anger overtakes reason, people become confused about their values and beliefs. They also become vulnerable to power grabbers who prey on confusion and discontent.

As for the haters, they are just there. They always have been and always will be. The Tea Party seems to have attracted a good many of them.

10/01/2010 9:33 AM  
Anonymous Observer said...

Yeah, right, Framer, spoken by someone who watches Fox Noise like it's reality to stay in his happy place. Did you squeak with the rest of the rats at the Palin/ Beck 12-step-a-thon?

Where were you bitchaholics when Bush/Cheney bled the place dry and slammed it in the ditch? Where were you when they trashed $T's, $T's, and more $T to swing dick overseas and stuff the Halliburton Blackwater gang? Where were you when they gave $T's to the pharma gang? Where were you when they gave $T's to the richest 1/2 of 1%? You don't give a shit about the debt. You just want to rack it up for unnecessary wars and giveaways to the super rich.

Obama is probably a one term president, and when the next filthy rich white asshole is the White House, regarding the deficit, we will all hear the sound of the Framer types eating a dose of Shut the Fuck Up.

10/01/2010 10:26 AM  
Blogger The Navigator said...

Don’t sugar coat, Observer.

Blaming Obama for the deficit is like blaming the guy that shows up to the trashed house the morning after the drunken orgy. During Bush the Republican greed machine looted the entire country for a handful of friends. Cheney even said as much, “We hit the jack pot.” The drug bill and the Halliburton Iraq contract say it all.

There is some legitimate stuff in what Framer says about the deficit. Future Republican orgies will have to be a little more subdued. They can push for a $700B giveaway to the super rich, but I don’t think they get another go at making shit up to invade China or Botswana or wherever their F-head president gets an itch to play Caesar.

Many concepts are involved and they are all convoluted. One is a legitimate concern about the debt. One is flat out racism. Another is what Liza discusses, the fear and hatred involved with the world shifting away from earlier views of a homogeneous (white Christian) society that can do whatever it wants to the planet and anyone/anything on it. Those days are going bye-bye.

10/01/2010 11:17 AM  
Anonymous Framer said...

Haven't watched Fox news (or any Television news) in over 2 years.

Observer = Observer
Framer = Participant

As for what the Tea Party is, I can tell you the truth, but most of you don't have the frame of reference to understand it. I think the best analogy that you might understand is:

Modern Unions, Most Federal Bureaucracy, UN, Most members of Congress, most Past Presidents and staff, University establishment and the media (among a lot of other things)= Cloth in the most extreme and insidious case.

You don't reform cloth through more bureaucracy, more funding, catchy slogans, or promoting from within, or swapping cloth for different cloth, you pare down the cloth's power and funding, weaken it's leaders, and expose the corruption. Most regulation is placed to keep both private and public sector cloth in power. The only true way to guard against cloth is to give people the ultimate power to vote with their feet, and be subject to real, natural consequences for choosing poorly.

There is no good cloth even if it is pattern that you like.

Oh and for a specific example of cloth that you like still being cloth:

Green Jobs = Creative Class.

I hope that helps.

10/01/2010 2:13 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

Yeah, that really clears things up.

What we are lacking is a frame of reference. We cannot possibly understand the grand and noble principles upon which the Tea Party was founded.

I'll remember this next time I see film footage of them carrying signs saying that Obama is a Muslim, socialist, fascist, Hitler, etc...

Maybe if we were as brilliant as Sarah Palin we could understand what the Tea Party is REALLY about.

10/01/2010 2:57 PM  
Anonymous Framer said...

The Obama-Hitler sign people are Lyndon Larouche followers. They be leftist nutjobs not tea partiers.

And speaking of true intentions, here is one of your MAINSTREAM green organizations and their charming little public service spot:

Many of you are Green Warriors, I suspect that this ad speaks for all of you.

You are all on the same team right? Of Course they speak for you.

10/01/2010 4:13 PM  
Anonymous Another Anon said...

Snell trying to justify his existence. Sorry, I can't make this a live link.

10/01/2010 5:10 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

No, Framer, the video you have referenced does not speak for me. However, is Tom Ganley representative of GOP men who attend Tea Party rallies? Just asking...

From "The Huffington Post" - 10-1-2010:

Ohio GOP congressional candidate Tom Ganley is the target of a new lawsuit alleging that the multi-millionaire businessman sexually assaulted a Cleveland woman in his office last year.

According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the claims come from a 39-year-old married mother of four who says she met Ganley at a Tea Party rally in July of last year, where she asked if she could get involved in the campaign.

After a series of meetings revolving around campaign duties and a potential car repair, on August 1, 2009, Ganley allegedly sexually assaulted the woman.

The Plain Dealer reports:

"Ganley told her he wanted her to dominate her, parade her on a leash and have sex with her in front of his 'play friends,' the suit says. It accuses him of grabbing her from behind, wrapping his arms around her, kissing her and, despite her resistance, reaching into her pants."

Ganley and the woman have been seeking to settle out of court, but after no agreement could be reached, the accuser turned to a lawsuit.

Steve Dever, Ganley's attorney, has called the charges extortion and claims they are politically motivated.

10/01/2010 5:30 PM  
Blogger x4mr said...

Framer is also going to have little difficulty finding disturbing footage from the left. Remember Earth First! back in the 80s? As the planet continues to cook and the evidence mounts, we will see increasing hostility towards those doing the cooking.

I will acknowledge that Framer's comment (2:13 PM) points to what I consider to be an important distinction, that between effective government and bad government. We do have cloth infestation at all levels in the form of corruption, cronyism, fraud, abuse, etc.. that costs this country a fortune. I can get as upset he does about what is essentially organized crime.

Sorry, but I can't buy that tea is about cloth at the national level. First, it lumps all government together as bad and draws no distinction. Second, tea is irrationally over the top hostile towards Obama, deliberately lying in the face of solid fact (take your pick – Muslim, born in Kenya, socialist, Hitler, anti-Christ..). By far the most damning argument against tea is its list of candidates. Christine O'Donnell? Sharron Angle? Joe Miller? Sarah Palin? I cannot imagine that Framer thinks these characters can or could ever craft sound arguments for improving US policy.

Also, what's with getting government out of people's lives unless, of course, they are gay or get pregnant? Sorry, Framer, but tea is entirely too cozy with the religious right for me to buy the notion that its anger and energy are rooted in disgust with cloth at the national level. Like Nav, I agree with Liza that a LOT of tea has to do with a world view becoming obsolete. The White Christian Boys Club has to share now, and it is furious. Yeah, they do want “their” country back.

The Bush administration expanded government more than any in history, and it took incompetence and cronyism, the national cloth, to a whole new stratosphere. By contrast, the Clinton administration implemented sweeping reforms all over in the federal system, many of which improved efficiencies that helped contribute to creating the surplus. A SURPLUS! There's your hero, Framer.

10/01/2010 5:56 PM  
Anonymous Another Anon said...

Love the spirited debates again here.

10/01/2010 7:35 PM  
Anonymous Robish said...

Hate to change the subject, but TREO had its annual luncheon today at La Paloma, as Another Anon referenced with his/her link from Starnet.

From what I heard, even the Cloth in the audience was not impressed. Snell essentially called for a local suspension of the First Amendment. He expects only good news to be reported, to make his job easier.

The hotel drama is heating up and may come to a head next week. It's too bad that Rob O'Dell is on vacation, and can't be here in Tucson to cover it.

10/01/2010 8:41 PM  
Anonymous Framer said...


Care to outline, in detail, the executive orders that Clinton made to balance the budget. Obviously a Republican dominated House and Senate had nothing whatsoever to do with it (right?)

92-98 was the previous high point for the type of sentiment that you are seeing right now. It didn't have anything to do with racism then and it doesn't now. Clinton got elected because of the mischievious little gnome that bought primetime infomercials with charts and graphs showing the dangers of overspending. Had he looked more like Mitt Romney, he may have made history, but instaed, he split the Republican vote and lifted Clinton to victory. Clinton misread his mandate and was punished in 94.

The great thing about '94 is a lot of the cloth was actually replaced, and it took a good six or eight years to penetrate the rookies and weave the new parts back into the system.

Those people knew what got them elected, Clinton had a great political ear and knew enough not to stand in the way, and for a brief moment things were going right. If the Tea party looks back with "wistfulness" that is what they wish for.

Thing is that 2910 is probably going to be a larger turnover than 94 and Obama does not have Clinton's ear or skill. That will make 2012 very interesting.

And no comment whatsever on the 10:10 video? Seriously that is about as ugly as anything you have posted here as symbolic of the right, and it was MAINSTREAM, Gillian Anderson and everything.

10/01/2010 9:26 PM  
Blogger x4mr said...

Your comments are always welcome, change of subject or not. We can always go back.

Companies are going to move to Tucson and Southern Arizona, period, especially solar, but also medical and other tech as makes sense, for example at the UA tech park. TREO stays in touch to make sure it knows when something will happen, like a call from PICOR advising who just locked up some space. Then they announce that they caused the whole thing.

I forgot in my last comment to mention the odd irony that in local matters (cloth, etc.) I find myself siding with GOP officials and the likes of Joe Higgins, etc.. If we keep the conversation to city issues, Framer and I and Steve K. and even Frank Antenori would probably enjoy a good smoke with some port.

Oh, right. Well, Frank and I without question would love the cigar and port. Don't know about Steve.

In case it's not obvious, to me your comments are also welcome here, although as you know my sentiments are not shared by all.

Whether you would reply or not I did not know, but I anticipated you would have a reaction to the assertion that Clinton created the surplus. My language was precise and intentionally so. His reforms contributed to the surplus, and yes, the 1994 election and what followed played a key role in the many factors that produced the surplus.

It would be quite a research project to list the efficiency reforms. It wasn't exciting stuff, but in aggregate it saved tons of money. It's a hugely under reported story about the Clinton administration, which truly wanted to improve the machine, not cripple it.

I watched the 1010 video, as did Liza. Like I said, this will escalate as the planet continues to heat up, which it is.

10/01/2010 9:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I watched the 10:10 video, and yes it is repulsive, but that is the point. It is repulsive that those who profit from destroying our planet can continue to do so because they have the wealth and power to buy our politicians.

Isn't it interesting that the people denying global warming are the same people that deny evolution and the same people that deny Obama is a US citizen?

10/01/2010 10:24 PM  
Blogger Sirocco said...

"Clinton got elected because of the mischievious little gnome that bought primetime infomercials with charts and graphs showing the dangers of overspending."

The "blame Perot" story is, effectively, a myth. During the several months in the middle of the race where Perot suspended his campaign (I.e., the period where, if this myth had validity you would have expected to see these Perot voters overwhelmingly move to Bush Sr.), Bush Sr. never led in a single poll. Not one.

Other than the period after the Republican convention and the expected "bounce" effect, Perot's absence never really saw Bush closing the gap in any significant amount.

Believers of this myth forget Perot espoused certain positions which many Democrats shared (pro-choice, pro-gay rights, etc.).

Results of one exit poll taken at the time:

Who would you have voted for if Perot were not on the ballot:

Bush 38%
Clinton 38%
Other 6%
Rest no vote, or undecided

10/02/2010 6:51 AM  
Anonymous Framer said...


It wasn't particularly the votes where Perot destroyed Bush, it was the narrative. Bush was never a fiscal conservative, Perot further exposed it. The more interesting question would have been if someone with more political skill and charisma with Perot's message and money at that particular moment could have pulled off the the ultimate upset.

And seriously, how can there be anything but contempt for that video? This "well, I understand where they are coming from" is just crap. Maybe some of you truly are in that corner. That disturbs me.

10/02/2010 8:02 AM  
Blogger The Navigator said...

It's interesting to note how different people get triggered by different material. The 1010 video jolted Framer. Yeah, it was graphic, but keep in mind it was made by the Brits. While physically gruesome, even the gore was vague (homogeneous red slop) and it attacked a concept (indifference to climate change), not an ethnic group, etc.

I can be jolted and have been. Those T-shirts x4mr posted last year, in particular the weather report that showed a mushroom cloud and read, "Partial Sunnis, scattered Shiites" made me sick and and deeply offended. It was like the image violated me.

Not sure what reaction you would expect here, Framer, but I think you got what one would predict, which is a "Not our thing" but no real outrage either. Keep in mind the neighborhood you are in, and what we have been seeing ever since Obama took office.

10/02/2010 1:12 PM  
Anonymous Framer said...

Then your outrage means nothing to me. The pretend killing of children on film is just art, but an obscure tee shirt none of you are actually going to see anyone wearing is Armageddon?

One was done is some guys basement. The other was partially funded by the British government. You see where this goes right?

Show me the Tea partier that has strapped a bomb on his chest. To the disappointment of many, this hasn't happened.

The whole "save the earth" movement IS rife with a violent undertone and you excuse it like you do Hamas. There is a reason that the sacrament of abortion is tied to the "save the earth" types. Mote, beam and all that.

I suspect that I am done with this topic.

10/02/2010 4:36 PM  
Anonymous Observer said...

So Framer's found himself a kook!! Congratulations! Now we know which boogie men keep him up at night.

The green police gonna check your carbon print.
If it's too big they gonna shove yo' face in it.
They gonna inspect what's in your stash
They gonna test what's in your trash
Green will approve what you get to eat
Green will decide what's driven on the street
They gonna recycle your momma into something soylent.
They gonna track how much you flush your toilet
You will bow before the statue of Prophet Gore
Mother Earth rules and ain't taking yo' shit no more.

Oh, come on, Framer. Haven't you heard?


The British just this recognized the earth worshiping Druids as a religion. What you don't get is that the Druids are THE RELIGION. Forget Islam. The Druids shall inherit the earth. They'll sterilize LDS by putting chemicals in the undergarments.

Our Green, which art in soil, sea, and sky,
Hallowed be thy name
Thy seasons come,
Thy will be done
Below as it is above.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our carbonic carnage,
as we forgive your droughts and floods.
And lead us not into toxic waste,
but deliver us from Republicans.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.

10/02/2010 5:39 PM  
Blogger Sirocco said...

"It wasn't particularly the votes where Perot destroyed Bush, it was the narrative."

You (and, to be fair, numerous others) might believe this ... but there actually isn't any real evidence to support this notion.

Of course, much of what makes a myth a myth is reliance on anecdote rather than actual hard evidence.

10/02/2010 6:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is a reason that the sacrament of abortion is tied to the "save the earth" types. Mote, beam and all that.


10/02/2010 7:13 PM  
Blogger The Navigator said...

Sometimes I wonder about you.

The irony of a teabagger referring to the mote and the beam is off the map. Do not judge, lest you be judged, but God hates fags, spics are lazy, coons are stupid, and Islam is evil. But do not judge.

Just like tea believes in freedom, unless you like the same gender, get pregnant, or want to build a church for "those people."


Framer's reference to the "sacrament of abortion" shows his thinking and vindicates what Liza has been saying years.

10/03/2010 1:51 PM  
Blogger x4mr said...

Yeah, Nav, Framer's use of the word “sacrament” for abortion is disturbing, and it is disappointing given our history that he shows himself to be clueless regarding the reality of what it is to have an abortion.

What this reality entails, and it is an adult conversation, is available in a presentation that does not mess around.

My confidence in Framer's watching such material is low. He doesn't want to see solid data on who has abortions and why. The notion that those trying to save the planet are on a mission to kill children is surreal.

10/03/2010 8:53 PM  
Blogger Liza said...

The inside of Framer's head would probably scare the hell out of most of us.

But it really doesn't matter. Much like his gasbag wingnut idols, Limbaugh and Beck, he just simply makes up his own associations and then uses these plus a few outright lies as the basis for some kind of fictitious argument. Then he declares that he won the argument that he created to deflect attention from a discussion about the so called "Tea Party."

I guess I would be more disturbed by what he has said on this thread if I had not already identified him as a whack job (with delusions of grandeur.)

10/04/2010 9:33 AM  

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